The irony of me lauding how a closed proprietary device is helping oust a proprietary technology is thick, but honestly I couldn’t be happier that Flash seemingly isn’t supported by the iPad. Gruber has written much about Flash and Apple, and he’s a clever guy, so if you haven’t read his stuff yet, you should do yourself a favor and consume his site start to finish, but here’s my take.
I’m not a fanatic when it comes to open vs. proprietary, which should be evident, my Apple fetish taken into account, but in my mind Flash has no home on the net of the future, and I’m happy to see Apple inching it out bit by bit. Yes, it crashes a lot for me, but that’s not the reason I don’t like it, I just want to see the internet of the future absolutely open, and Flash simply won’t allow that. Furthermore, we’re slowly reaching a point where modern web technologies will overlap Flash’s unique functionality.
So why are people vying for Flash on the Apples devices? What is it that Flash delivers that people want so bad? I was tweeting with Matt Brett, who said he’d buy one for his daughter if it had had Flash, for casual games; but I just don’t see what it is that Flash can deliver as a browser plugin, that can’t otherwise be delivered in much more superior ways as apps, be they compiled Flash applications or not.
Besides whatever technical or economical reasons Apple has for not wanting to include Flash on their closed devices, there’s another major issue I never see anyone address, which is very applicable for those pesky flash games.
How do you click-drag on a multi-touch device? Yes, you can concoct some inane scheme (double-click, but hold on the last click and then drag… or something), but that’s exactly what the iPhone and iPad aren’t about. There’s no elegant way to bring over those games to that user interface, you have to build them for it because it straight-up simply is not the same as keyboard and mouse.
Furthermore, and this is really important, for everyone involved, the app store is a working marketplace, which the web isn’t. It’s proven insanely hard to get people to pay for content on the web, but for various reasons people don’t mind dropping gold for apps on the app store. As a smalltime game developer, despite whatever approval process problems the app store has had, this is a much better deal on almost all accounts. It’s easier to develop for, being as it is almost console-like, and it’s a working, proven marketplace.
In fact, hey, it pretty much is a console experience.
So what is it that people want with Flash? What is this coveted thing that Flash does that people can’t live without?
I just don’t get it.
As you know, I’m completely with you on this. Every step of the way and everything you said.
As you also know, I love playing the devils advocate.
First law of human behavior: everybody’s an idiot. They use Windows XP, they use IE6, they use Flash Player.
Why do people want Flash? It’s all connected. Windows is the most widely used operating system. Windows Vista failed to oust Windows XP, so the most widely used OS is so old it should be deprecated almost a decade ago. Windows XP comes with IE6. IE6 doesn’t do HTML5. So YouTube requires Flash Player to play videos.
So bottomline, you hate Windows XP more than you hate Flash Player. Tell me I’m wrong.
We really should have continued our conversation outside of Twitter. I stopped replying as it was starting to get tedious trying to explaining things within 140 characters.
That’s the disconnect in our conversation. It’s not that they can’t be delivered as apps, it’s that they’re not and likely won’t ever be. My daughter uses sites like Stardoll and Webkinz daily. There’s no app counterpart to those, and I highly doubt we’ll ever see one. Same goes for the plague that are Facebook games. My wife has no less than 5 or 6 on the go at all times, and has been spending much more time with her MacBook since she discovered them. Think you’ll find any of them in the app store? No sir. And again, it’s not because they’re some crazy high tech games that can only be built on Flash. Have you seen Farmville? ;)
My daughter has asked us to bank her allowance until her birthday, in order to save up for a PC of sorts. Likely a netbook, or a cheap-o Dell. And guess who gets to play tech support when they inevitably fall apart? This guy! I would much rather she sank her money into an Apple product that is close in price and not have to worry about it. The cheapest MacBook is double the price of a “good” netbook.
BTW, love what you’ve done with your footer! Looking super nice these days.
Joen, duh.
I don’t care. I’m not allowed to let progress be stifled by the incompetent. If there’s some knuckle dragger out there still using IE6 and he gets hosed oh flipping well. Call it Digital Darwinism if you like.
If some drooler gets left behind in the information age, fine.
Maybe you don’t know any truly stupid people. I do. Trust me, we won’t be missing any future Einsteins by not catering to the Most Common Moron.
Joen, you’re right about flash being a way to cater to those stuck in 2001, and that’s certainly worth something.
But that kind of backwards compatibility is actually not a plus, it’s a disease (read also let old be old and new be new), and it’s what’s gotten Windows into the mess it’s in today. Contrary to Chris, I don’t blame the people still running XP or IE6; they don’t know any better, and why should they? That’s why Apple’s closed devices are so great; they auto-update. Same with Chrome. I installed Chrome on my mom’s computer a long time ago, and I don’t have to worry about it ever again, because it’s in the competent hands of Google.
That’s the future we want, and the road to get there may leave some people behind, but so be it. Business as usual.
Is that annoying in the here and now? For some, sure; but in far and away the most cases, Farmville won’t be the deciding factor about whether or not you want to buy an iPad. And furthermore, I’ll bet your $10 that before 2010 closes, you’ll see a Farmville app on the iPad/iPhone (if it’ll pass Apple’s approval process, I honestly know very little about Farmville); because that’s just good business.
@Matt,
That’s what this is :)
As it most often does.
See that’s where I disagree. I think one of two things are going to happen to those kinds of sites. Either they will adapt to modern web technologies and maybe degrade to Flash (wouldn’t that be sweet), or they will, their success allowing it, adapt to the new closed garden of app stores. It makes perfect sense for them to do so, not only because the marketplace technology is already in place, the consumers already have their wallets out and because it will cost them relatively little to do so, should they for instance chose to simply go with an app made from compiled flash. Now, admittedly I don’t know those websites very well, so I’m talking out of my ass here, but that’s what would make business sense in my head anyway. Not that that necessarily means they’ll go and do that.
Really, the question is, shouldn’t you ween your daughter onto some of Steve’s magic apps instead? And your wife, by the way.
I’m kidding of course, but not entirely.
The console-like experience of the iProducts is really very much akin to the difference between regular PC games and console games. Both have advantages and disadvantages, but the disadvantages of the consoles are far and away outweighed by the advantages, as has been proven many times over, despite outrageous outbursts from those damned diehard PC gamers.
And the Flash/No Flash dispute is largely the same, and I just don’t get why it’s such a big deal. If you (not you per se, the omnipresent ‘you’) want a device with Flash, buy one, they’re available. The Android for instance has Flash, and they’re really giving Apple a run for their… No, wait… They’re not. Because in reality, no one really cares.
Makes you wonder though, what would flash developers do if they could develop things and sites specifically for the iphone or ipad? There’s an opposite side to this, and if it was enabled, I think we’d see some pretty cool improvements and/or sites for these devices.
What was the last useful Flash page you were on?
Chris,
Oh I hope you didn’t think I wanted us to cater to IE users, quite the opposite, I applaud this move. I’ll fully support and endorse ANYTHING that’ll get users away from IE6, short of death squads.
Michael,
Well so you, like Chris, somehow got the gist that I was defending YouTubes backwards compatability. I really, truly wasn’t. I’m completely with you, and in fact I’d block IE6 users if I was running YouTube. Not only block them, but block them with an insulting message and a shock image.
No no, I’m all for ditching old stuff. Which incidentally is why I also think it’s a good move of more or less ditching OSX in favor of iPhone OS for this pad.
In response to both Matt and Adam,
“What do we do instead of Flash for games”?
HTML5, local storage, WebGL, JavaScript, SVG, maybe even Native Client (NaCl). Yes, some of those are emerging technologies. But if you can write a NES emulator and even an open source Flash Player in JavaScript, surely you can write Farmville or Stardollz in these technologies.
So I understand again that Flash has been used because it was the most viable solution at the time. But on the one hand, we have the iPad and the iPhone pushing non-flash solutions, and on the other hand, we have Google Chrome which is akin to pouring mocca in the browser latte, really pushing speed so much that not only Firefox but IE9 is getting with the program. Both things that help push webapps.
Because webapps and webgames is, I really truly believe, a market that’ll explode in 2010.
Absolutely. But what’s the business model?
No one has a clue. We’re just going to continue stumbling around in the dark re: internet business models for a long time.
And yet, put something on the App Store for .99¢ and someone will buy it.
Put an ad? No one will click it. Same for a paypal button. Not at the rate they’ll pay for apps on the app store.
Is this when we should start discussing the complete absence of really nice micropayment systems for the global web?
If a webapp came in a lite version, and $2.99 would give me full access and add it to my ubiquitous webapp account portfolio, and purchasing was as easy as it is on the App Store, I’d buy so many webapps your head would spin.
But I digest (I know it’s digress, but digest is funnier) I’m stuck with PayPal, just to name one roadblock.
WebApp store, where access to apps require a whitelisted login. If Apple can do it for Apps, why can’t they do it for Web Apps? Remember back when HTML was the SDK? Turns out they were right, but pussed out. Pussies.
Potty mouth.
They did no such thing. They merely opted for the solution that offered them a proven marketplace, not to mention control.
Sure. I also prefer “real” apps on Android. But my point still stands.
Devils advocate, remember?
It is sad for some awesomely designed Flash based websites but that’s all there is. The biggest (Facebook) games companies already are on the Appstore. Kids can play on a netbook and maybe should not have a 10” glass screen up to a certain age, as soon as they reach that age they might also be more interested in other games than many of these Flash games which haven’t been ported.
Let’s face things: AAPL is a public company and apps mean revenue. Flash still is a massive burden for the user. We do not know how the new chip is build, what the processor is optimised for. Looking at HTML5 video (after BBC iPlayer followed the Youtube on iPhone QuickTime model) I can only estimate what the new processor is optimised for.
Apple recently introduced the new iFrame video format. Every smart ‘pundit’ knew that the format was aimed at the new device. Video and nice overlays, plus apps with side-by-side split screens are the future of the iPad.
All the rest? Flash? Build an App.
Because Steve said so.
If we have to continue support an almost completely replaceable, and much cursed at, technology we might as well continue to keep the IE6 flag high. I know several multi-nationals who will not update to Win7 because of IE6 and all the money these companies have invested in their IE6+ActiveX intranet. ActiveX technologies which weren’t ported to IE7.
Let’s embrace the new and move forward. Otherwise play Zynga poker on the iPad with 802.11n FTW.
@Joen, they didn’t wuss out. Just look at how the actual iTunes (Store) works. It’s all HTML and CSS. Apple is uniting platforms.
iPhone G1 took ‘desktop to webapps’. Didn’t work out too well, maybe 1 year too early and no real financial concept. Then Apple thought ‘Let’s redefine the future of purchasing software’ (this is what Jobs is working at – purchase all software for Mac OS 11 via the Appstore!) and took everything ‘back locally’. iPhone 2.0 and iPhone 3.0.
A little fly on an Infinite Loop 1 wall heard then ‘Oh look HTML3 and CSS3 actually can be used in a great and powerful way. Let’s embed them in our desktop software’. iTunes 9.
Now we have Google Voice as webapp on the iPhone. Will a webgame with HTML5 ever be as powerful as a native game? Nope and if Flash is the trigger to this I know I would also be able to fry my eggs on the back of my iPad. I only have to look at the CPU usage of my MBP 2.4Ghz when playing FB poker. In a flash app.
We can cry but the boss decides. Let’s move on the discussion has been going on for 3 years now. Jobs says no and there really is no need for Flash. Look at Youtube on iPad. 300% sure it’s HTML5.
read: contrary sumbitch.
This whole iPad thing has actually stimulated me to write a post on my own site. I know, worlds coming to an end. Watch for raining frogs.
People want Flash or something to replace it soon. I would love to have something to where I can watch DivX movies or avi files on an iphone or ipad. Also I’d love to be able to listen to music stream through a flash player. With out all of this it just feels like i would not be getting the best of what this iPad can give so I’ll have to my iMac. Flash just gives things that are nice to have added. Replace flash with something new that Apple can use and the rest of the internet world can switch to would be nice.
I completely agree on all points, except with one caveat.
I develop a Flex app. We’d really like to just be able to run it, and the form factor of the iPhone and the iPad are pretty appealing in our customers’ work environments.
So what do we do? Do it right instead. Flex is great for what we’re doing on the desktop, but we’ll probably end up with a simpler Android app and iPhone/iPad app to access the most essential features, all connecting to the same data services. Of course, they’ll be better for those platforms since they’ll use the appropriate UI paradigms and themes.
So it basically forces us to do the right thing. I’m okay with that, even though it’d be real nice to be able to use the same app everywhere. Oh well.
Who gives a crap?
Educators.
This device seemed to hold promise for classroom use…especially in younger-grades. Unfortunately, however, the exclusion of Flash means that a HUGE list of the most popular interactive educational sites are rendered worthless/unusable.
Bottom line?
–The $80 million technology bond measure our small school district just approved will NOT be investing in 4000 of these devices as I thought we might.
Disappointing?
Absolutely.
Make-or-break?
–Broken.
as a flash/flex developer i think WE give a crap. We are missing a platform we could be developing for without having to install another IDE, learn another language, etc.
From a consumer standpoint, there are a lot of web sites that use flash tools. image galleries, virtual tours, calculators, etc not to mention the Flash heavy sites such as Disney that apple is scolding its users saying: “NO YOU CANT GO THERE OR USE THAT”
Financially, here are entire revenue streams being ignored ad networks built around flash for banner ads, videos, etc that are being ignored and losing revenue and costing those companies money forcing them to have to rework their content for yet another platform.
users are not getting the full web experience plan and simple and companies are having to invest in older technologies to make there flash related content that already works backwards compatible. These companies are only doing this to appeal to iphone users despite apple forcing them into this position that cost them money and time rebuilding what they already have.
Having worked extensively with both “AJAX” and Flash I can honestly say that from my humble opinion, being able to develop once and deploy to many without having to worry about browser/os compatibility is great. I can use flash to make a video games, watch movies, heck edit movies, grab microphone and web cam data and manipulate in real time, write multi user games and applications, create web based office tools or do a hybrid of everything (not to mention the exciting stuff we are doing with augmented reality that you cant really do with anything else on the web).
I enjoy the power Flash provides from a development standpoint and most other Flash Developers would agree.
I’m happy to hear other companies are listening, such as google and Motorola. They are far more open to the community, place less restrictive standards on their content without penalizing companies, users and the talented / creative developers who provide the content and have the ideas.
–erik
Flash is to the iPad and iPhone what William Shatner is to the new Star Trek movie: it may ensure extra revenue, but it may not, and it’s certainly expendable.
For the record, I wanted Shatner in the new Star Trek.
No flash means no Youtube, no Hulu, no BBC iPlayer, basicly 90% of video on the internet is off limits. For device that is supposed to be for web browsing, that makes it pretty useless.
Sidney,
Flash video is already H264 encoded files. Which means if people upgrade to HTML5 browsers, all those sites will work with just a leedl bit of work on their backend.
Sidney,
Hulu is unavailable outside the US, the BBC’s iPlayer is unavailable outside the UK and when was the last time there was anything worth watching on youtube?
Here’s hoping html5 will make webvideo flash-independent, good to see Vimeo and Youtube are alreading jumping on the bandwagon.
Sidney, you’re talking out of your ass.
I’ll be your 20 bucks that in half a year all major video websites will support HTML 5 to some extend, falling back to Flash where necessary.
One thing that is confusing to me is why you are all talking about HTML5 as if it is the defacto standard, widely accepted / used / supported????
Last I checked, the spec wasn’t on target to be complete until 2012. If it is anything like ecmascript it will be a slow arduous bureaucratic process tangled in red tape and rot with politics fueled by ulterior motives and corporate positioning / maneuvering.
Look what they did with the ecma-262 spec! after years and years and years of refinement, changes and some companies (like adobe/macromedia) supporting it, it was scrapped completely.
So while flash is proprietary, there are some positives:
1) it can change / evolve quickly
2) it runs 99% the same across all browsers / OSs
3) corporations like to see a technology backed by a company they can hold liable.
With HTML5, until the spec is finished, you have ZERO guarantees anything will work or be valid in the next revision, os / broswer combo. Like HTML and JS each browser will implement it differently and introduce their own set of problems, bugs, rendering issues, etc and then you have to hope it gets adopted by end users. After Windows live people are a bit more jaded, more slow to adopt and going with an unproven technology.
Some of you all are obviously early adopters, on the steve jobs bandwagon and/or technology elitist, especially considering the “Flash being 2001” comment. Which is fine, but bare in mind that most people, corporations, government and educational sectors will be years and years behind and when they do come around will be slow to adopt. When it comes to new technology, executives, risk mitigators, etc approach new trends cautiously because the technology is unproven and susceptible to security flaws, bugs, memory issues, playback and performance problems, etc. No one wants to invest in a fad (vrml anyone) that doesn’t have any legs to stand on. it is too costly.
So despite Flash being around for a very long time (I’ve been working with it since 97), it has grown by leaps and bounds which each new version, has become more stable, more trusted and whos reach has grown then ever imagined (it started out as a vector animation tool for tablets LOL). But Even now, there are a lot of companies who are just embracing Flash having jumped the Java or NET bandwagon for web applications.
Flash has done a lot of good, including paving the way for HTML5. However, HTML5 is at least 5 years from coming to fruition assuming it does not suffer the same fate as ecmascript-262 third edition.
–erik
Flash definitely had its place, and has helped the web get to where it is. And there’s room for Flash still; but it isn’t a requirement for a web browser in the same way it was a year or two ago.
No, the spec isn’t done yet, but given that Firefox gets their act together and jumps onto the h.264 bandwagon, all modern browsers at least support video, which is 95% of what people vying for Flash really mean when they say they want Flash on Apples closed devices. And adapting existing video site pipelines to hand over HTML 5 instead of Flash to modern browsers/devices is a) relatively easy and b) already being done (point your iPhone to vimeo.com and check it out).
Let’s face it, a spec not being finished isn’t the same as a spec not being supported on the internet.
You’re absolutely right that most people, corporations, government and educational sectors will be behind the bleeding edge. So what? They’ve always been and will always be. That’s just the natural state of things, how does adapting an idea that, at least to Apples mind, looks bad in the longterm help those people and organizations?
Basing this all on video is rather moot considering Flash’s reach, trust and penetration. However, what about the various forms of streaming / progressive / secure download options available via Flash? The multitude of ad networks that stream ads and generate tons of revenue from? I sincerely doubt that HTML5, which has very limited support and install base is all of a sudden going to replace Flash, Quick time etc in the next 5 months. What incentive does 98% of the corporate world have to care?
In regards to content, what about the richly branded web sites with heavy use of animations, transitions and game like interfaces with integrated video?
What about the 300 million active social network game players?
What about Augmented Reality experiences that just would not be possible without Flash?
What about Virtual tours, audio players, real time video conferencing applications?
While you may not care, and you have made that point obvious. There is over a billion people who do and billions of dollars in revenue that is being lost because of apples arrogance.
Right now Apple is giving everyone the finger, users and developers a like by refusing to support Flash. The question is why?
MONEY! If apple would all of a sudden open the doors to Flash. The app store would have a flood of competition. The market would be saturated with brilliantly design free software that apple couldn’t pillage, rape and plunder from everyone. This is what it all really boils down to. Apple is VERY controlling. If you have ever made an iphone app (i have) you will know this. They strong arm developers and force feed users. However most people are so loyal to apple they dont care or have been brainwashed (eg: iProduct).
HOWEVER, what I love is that the iphone has a relatively small install base compared to the number of other phones available on other networks with companies like google, nokia, Motorola and Microsoft openly supporting Flash Player. MICROSOFT! The company who has a competing technology, who is notorious for being EVIL has a more open platform then Apple!
“Let’s face it, a spec not being finished isn’t the same as a spec not being supported on the internet.”
What happens if that spec is dropped? Does everyone who supported it say “so what” and roll their own flavor or do they revert to old habits? That would leave browsers is such a precarious position. The only true winners there would be the companies who circumvented the browser or so called open standards (see red tape comment in previous comment) with their own plugins or platforms (ala AIR).
I think this is why companies like MS have embraced their own proprietary technology outside of the browser and why Adobe is pushing AIR so much because a browser can only get you so far.
But I digress. to your original point, there are a lot of people who care. some for video, some for games, some for rich experiences, some for applications, some because its a proven technology, some because it is trusted, some because they dont want to wait for the dust to settle or rely on 10 different browsers to implement HTML5 10 different ways.
I’m all for open standards but design by committee just doesn’t work. the state of HTML and JS remaining virtually unchanged the past 10 years is a testament to this. All the while Flash has progressed to include 3d, physics, hardware acceleration, video, real time audio / video, etc etc.
–erik
–erik
If that’s you question, then what’s the problem?
They are by and large annoying, IMHO.
What about them? Are they being force-fed iPads?
What about them? Are you suggesting that because something exists, Apple is somehow obliged to deliver support for it, despite the fact that it’s hurtful to their own business? What drugs are you on?
Old markets adapt or die. When the internet rose to prominence, did you cry over the death of subscription-based BBS’s? As IP telephony takes over, are you crying foul over the death of old telephony?
So, you do understand, except you call ‘pillage, rape and plunder’, we call commerce.
If you only knew how much I agree with you.
This by the way is why Apple built the app store.
In regards to your “what about them” remarks.
I was answering your orginal questions:
“So why are people vying for Flash on the Apples devices?” and “who gives a crap”.
I think ive shared some valid use cases for users and corporations alike even though you may not personally agree.
–erik
Am the I the only guy who would love to play the tons of free flash games out there on the iPad? I guess so.
I agree with the title of this article… If you are stupid enough to think that the extra $300 you paid, for a giant iPod Touch would give it Flash capability, then you are a moron to begin with. No matter how much you pay Apple, they aren’t going to undercut the business model of the appstore by putting Flash support on that OS, period. Not a problem with their real computers, as they just overcharge you up front so they still get their money.
That being said, as an owner of an iPod Touch I have always said that the UI is by far the most intuitive ever invented to date. In fact, the dumbest SOB alive can pick one up and use it. Glad they are building them for people with poor eyesight and lots of money as well… thanks iPad!
Apple’s in fashion iPad will eventually blow up after this initial push time during it’s launch. The lack of keyboard and Apple’s potential to fix hardware will definitly to make the product a success in years to come.
Dont blame the toolbox, blame the craftsmen. You’re comparing a web-browser with a programming toolkit – they aren’t the same. A browser is designed to show a multitude of content types – thats it. If one manufacturer decides to restrict this, then you have to consider the commercial reasons why. The reality of all this is a hidden agenda. Its down to money and app sales. Apple get a hell of a lot of money in aftersales from its devices via the appstore. Why would anyone buy an app if they can go on a web-page and use a free Flash based one. Thats what all this Flash issue is actually about.
Being a Flash developer I have a broader experience of using Flash commercially – so I’m uniquely positioned to comment. You should have your opinion, but I think you need to consider the bigger picture – hopefully after reading this, you and others might see it a little differently.
People forget that Flash is a broad programming platform – not just something that you create banner ads with, and such implementations for advertising and rubbish music intro pages are only a small part of its overall capabilities and a very poor way of using the technology.
Its a software tool like any other – It can be used fullscreen as an app, or for small components on a normal web-page. Its main strength is its amazing array of rich media support. If you want to build a lush usable interface brimming with streaming HD video, animation, artwork, mp3 playback – nothing beats it for ease of development – thats why its so popular.
Try making a browser based game or rich content application with all that using PHP and HTML 5 utilising webcam functionality, HD video, animations and the sort of high quality typographical design that you’d see in a conventional magazine – very hard with other programming toolkits, but all possible with Flash to do yourself.
If you use anything else you’ll be rebuilding the wheel all the time and need a massive team of people. Similarly you could also try Java, .Net or Silverlight and after you’ve built your web multimedia super app – but it would look like a web app like all the others with no professional design finess.
Then try the same thing in Flash – you’ll soon see why its a world beater – you’ll build it in a fraction of the time –And you have pixel perfect (and even fraction of a pixel accuracy on your creation) thats why its used by so many people.
I’ve never had Flash apps crash on me – I’ve been building them commercially for 10 years now – such things are always down to bad programming – or unstable hardware in a machine – or too many badly designed (written) Flash applications running on the same web page on a machine without much Ram.
So if you want to make your perfect home automation Ipad app yourself – good luck using Apple’s programming kit – I know I’d rather build it in Flash in a fraction of the time and then wait for a decent tablet with full PC functionality and a proper browser that shows ALL web content Flash or otherwise. Which lets face it will happen over the next 6 months in the same way the Iphone reinvigorated the touchscreen phone market.
So putting a ban on Flash content is like saying “we won’t allow you to watch .wmv videos.” “divx” or worse “jpegs are not allowed”.
Technology is about opening boundaries for displaying content to everyone, which is what a real fully featured web browser should do. It shouldn’t matter whatever tools they wish to use to create their content.
Its like digital “free speech”, why shouldn’t you be able to see ALL web content – Java, Silverlight, Flash, Video, Pictures everything. I don’t want companies forcing me to see and buy their stuff only.
This unfortunately is something Apple won’t ever allow to happen, which in the long run is why they’ll fail, because after the masses buy it, they’ll get fed up with seeing “plugin not available” on their favourite websites and start liking the whole form factor of a tablet, and decide to go buy a more open PC or Mac based tablet instead in a couple of years.
Apple’s stellar iTablet will soon evolve after the first push time during it’s unveiling. The touch screen and Mac’s potential to fix hardware will help to make the iPad a success story in the time ahead.
Flash developers seem to forget that the Flash player is a horrible piece of software, especially on non-Windows platforms. It was the main reason Safari 4.0 runs plugins in a separate process; now when the Flash player inevitably crashes, Safari 4.0 users can just reload the page instead of restarting the browser.
Adobe supposedly did develop Flash for the iPhone, but it was never officially announced or released.
From what I’ve been told, it ran so poorly that Apple refused to put it in iPhone OS.
On iPhone OS, a lot of the UI drawing is actually handled by the GPU. Even 2D iPhone games use the GPU extensively (by having sprites be textured polygons that always face the viewer) so that they can get things like alpha blending and sprite scaling/rotation for a lot less performance cost than they would by doing it on the CPU.
But supposedly iPhone Flash did everything on the CPU and ran like shit because of it. Battery life was supposedly in the half-hour range when running the Flash player.
Apple suggested offloading at least some of the drawing onto the GPU but Adobe instead claimed it was Just Fine™ and insisted that Apple include it in the OS. Apple laughed, said No Thanks, and that was the end of it.
Let’s start by saying I’m not a Mac basher and I dislike MS as much as the next person and I have the no flash plugin installed.
But hold on a sec, you’re saying we should replace a proprietary format like Flash with a proprietary format, delivered via a proprietary store, controlled by a company who has already proved it’s as unscrupulous as MS should those apps not be to it’s liking? Oh, and it only works on a limited platform, at least Flash manages them all.
All so those people can make some money (and more for Apple)?
And as for the comment about ads not earning money like paid for apps, have a read up on the guys who launched the Flash-based Desktop Tower Defence and coined it in.
So what we REALLY want is an alternative for Flash that is open, free and can run on any platform, not more apps controlled by a single company.
I like the look of the iPad, but I’ll wait until someone brings out a version that allows me to run whatever existing apps I want, not just those Apple deem I want.
sean do you have any references to what you are suggesting?
Also, I’m running mac here and haven’t had a problem with safari or FF. Must be the version you are running or something has been corrupted.
have you tried some of the fixes posted on adobe or some of the mac boards? (relating to uninstalling Flash Player completely and reinstalling or due to a corrupt user preference file?
Not to dismiss your issue, but safari users only make up about 3% of internet audience and from what I have found the majority of issues has more to do with Safari. Try switching to FF for a better / more stable experience.
I concur with Lee’s points.
Derek:
Consider that if all of the web was as proprietary as Flash, the iPad wouldn’t have a browser to begin with, because the HTML engine would owned by AOL, the CSS by Microsoft and the JS by Oracle.
a) I think you’re generalizing a bit perhaps? And b) I never said it wasn’t about commerce. Quite the opposite in fact.
Uniquely relative to who?
Agreed.
Now tell me, nevermind performance or stabiity issues, but how does rich content application index well when Google crawler comes knocking? How does it fare with the disabled? How does it handle permalinks? And why is it that Flash content never bubbles keyboard events to the browser?
I’m sure it can all be circumvented somehow, yet it never is… Which makes Flash a horrible net citizen.
Yet aside from playing video, that’s about 95% of what I see Flash do. You’ve taken the shortterm view, let me take the longterm.
No, there isn’t a readily available Flash replacement right now. Sure we’ve got Canvas and HTML 5 and what have you, but there’s definitely a ways to go still before we’re there. So we can leave Flash as it is and people will continue to use it for the most inane and useless things — of which, arguably, most Flash content is — and there will be no push to get support for the new and unproprietary technologies up and running, and we’re back in 1998. Hurray.
Or, we can kick Flash out, forcibly and violently, as Apple is doing, and in the vacuum left behind, watch as necessity becomes the mother of invention. Who knows, maybe when Adobe is finished kicking and screaming, they’ll decide to use their considerably experience to build the foremost development environment for Canvas?
You’ve never in 10 years seen Flash crash? I’m not calling you a liar, but I don’t believe that. I can’t think of a single piece of software I’ve used for 10 years, that hasn’t at some point crashed. Not one.
Of course, you’re a Flash developer, not an Apple developer. It’s kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy you’ve got going. And I’m sure the interface, were it to be used on an iPad, would feel right at home, as Flash so often does…
They’re already out. Run, don’t walk.
Yep. Apple innovates, others do lossy copies.
No, not at all. It’s saying “we’re not including Microsofts WMV codec”, which by the way they aren’t, and never have, nor do they include the DivX codec, and that hasn’t exactly hurt the iPhone either, has it? Both WMV and DivX are owned by proprietary companies (Microsoft and DivX, Inc.) and are not open standards per sé.
JPEG, as it happens, is an open standard.
Guess which category Flash falls into?
And that’s exactly what browsers do! Flash is a plugin. A PLUG-IN! There is not a single browser that has Flash support built-in. Why? Because it isn’t an open standard, Adobe owns it, wholesale.
Now you can argue Apple’s motives for not including it in their iPhone OS, but at the end of the day one of the results is nonetheless a better and cleaner web in the long run.
How long is the long run? Because I’d love to make a bet with you on that.
Lee:
No, that’s not what I’m saying at all.
I’m saying I personally think the net is better off without Flash, as described above. It’s powers are abused more than they are used, but what’s worse, it’s simply not a good citizen.
a) Ads are fine, don’t have anything against ads; but I believe a curated marketplace is a safer bet than not and b) That it’s flash isn’t what defines their succuess, I would imagine.
Yep.
And here’s where Apple puts their money where my mouth is. For years they’ve supported Webkit and used it to build Safari with. And webkit is arguably the single best browser engine in the world right now. While apps may be their first and foremost commerce model, the fact that Apple decided to do this, including using it for the OS X dashboard and even wanting to use it as the ‘SDK’ for the iPhone at first, draws a pretty significant picture of the future of the web on Apple’s devices.
Adobe could have built their own cross-platform browser years ago and used that to champion an open rich web and in the process have gained power from having the best development tools on the market. Instead they were busy relegated themselves to a relatively easily sidelined plugin.
Don’t blame Apple for not wanting to support Adobe? Blame Adobe for allowing Apple to be in the position to make that decision.
Erik, it’s not that I find Flash to be that crash prone, but I’ve had it crash in every single browser I’ve ever run.
@Lee
What I really want is for Flash to go away. Yep, that’s what I want. I just told you. Be sure and remember it the next time you try to tell someone else what they REALLY want.
@erikbianchi
I can’t think of a single program on the Mac that I’ve ever had to jump through a hoop in order to get working. Not even a Microsoft app and they invented hoop-jumping. Why on Earth should Flash be different?
@nooneinparticular
From what I’ve read on sites like Ars Technica, Engadget, etc the iPad is “MASIV FAIL!!11!!”’. Even the people that can spell seem to think it’s a horrible, horrible device. Apparently no one can even imagine the machine without giggling at its name because we’ve all suddenly turned 12 years old. Oh, and this is the worst thing Apple has made since the Apple TV and the Cube.
So, why in hell is it such a big deal for there to be Flash on the iPad? Why is there such a hew and cry from Flash developers desirous of their awesome runtime being available on a device that, from what I’ve read, is only awesome for how much it fails?
Finally, let’s review, the only site I ever visit that uses Flash is Youtube and that’s rare and already handled by a better interface on the iPad. I happily ignore Flash all over the web with various browser plugins.
So, I’m sorry that Flash developers are unhappy as well as the apparent bazillion people that were hoping to use an iPad for watching pornography but I’m not going to notice the absence.
Oh, almost forgot, Flash doesn’t allow view source. How awesome is that?
@Michael lol now that is grapsing for straws. How many applications or games allow you to view source. IMO this is a positive thing. most companies are not to keen on giving out their source code so openly for free. HOWEVER, you are incorrect. A developer can enable view source if they so choose. most do not. hence your perception.
@Chris apparently you have not tried to use eclipse lol. I dont think this is a flash problem or a mac problem for that matter. I think it is a safari thing. There is a reason why only 3% of the web use it… its not a great browser.
Funny though, Flash 10 seems to be running really nice on droid. It doesn’t run the greatest on windows mobile but if you know what you are doing you can get some really nice results. iPad == giant iphone and is well below the capabilities of a much cheaper, more powerful, real web experience netbook. If the rabid mac fanboys could just take a step back for a minute you would really this and feel really short changed.
I agree with the technical flaws of Flash, I don’t like it and it’s way overdue for an overhaul. Adobe has ignored it for too long because they’ve ruled the roost, same as MS with IE. Having said that, it is the most popular browser plugin installed, by a mile. It’s also got a huge base of applications (most online photo editors, for example), entertainment and web content.
And I’ve never had Flash crash on me either (new phrase ‘flash crash’ a bit like ‘fail whale’?), at least, not that I can remember. Java and even JS have done a fairly reasonable job of taking out my browser over the years though.
Let’s not forget that the iPad is, first and foremost, a way for Apple to leverage it’s paid content and sell it to you in a controlled environment. The only reason there’s a Kindle app in the store is so they can kick the Kindle to the curb. I have no doubt it’ll be wonderful, but you have to use it how Apple say you can use it, or you’re forced down the route of jail-breaking. That’s now how I want my devices to work. The hardware is a platform to allow the user to do whatever they wish, the iPad is a package.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not here to iPad bash either, it’s a beautiful piece of kit and I’ve long wanted a tablet device (I was hoping the CrunchPad might make it, but that’s gone). It will sell a lot and, hopefully, bring to life a whole new segment of computing (I’m with Michael, it’s not a laptop, the potential here is huge), but I’ll wait until someone brings out an option that allows me to choose from the millions of normal apps already out there.
@Chris
Yes, I would like to get rid of Flash too, but there’s no alternative to move all the apps and sites I use from Flash to at the moment, so we’re stuck with it, unless you’re happy not using any of those. So yes, you do want an alternative, even if you don’t know it. :D
Michael,
There’s only one thing in your post that I disagree with:
Hmm, how about the way you can move and organize apps in different screens on the iPhone? Click and hold an app in the home screen, and after a few seconds the UI hints that the apps can be moved.
Various iPhone apps are based on similar behaviors. There are a lot of click-drag possibilities on multi-touch-devices such as the iPhone and the iPad.
Don’t get me wrong — I very much agree that it’s a good thing the iPad won’t ever support Flash websites (go die already!).
@erikbianchi
OK, you’re right Erik. I’m wrong. Not only is Flash the most amazing thing ever but Webkit is the worst browsing experience I could ever imagine. What on earth Apple, Google and I were thinking is beyond me. We must all be functionally retarded.
It’s a good thing you came along when you did. Otherwise, I may have continued along happily enjoying the web using Safari not knowing what a fool I was.
Also, you’ve also managed to save me about 600$ that I will now not spend on an iPad because I had no idea that the device that Apple showed us isn’t something I’ve wanted all my life. In future I will contact you to let me know what are good purchasing decisions.
Erik:
Only this little thing called the web. You may have heard of it?
Specifically, they don’t have to. In fact, Apple is to some extent hoping they won’t.
“most do not”, being the key phrase here. Once again, Flash is a poor net citizen compared to open standards, regardless of it being because it only allows it to happen, or because it encourages such behavior.
You can disagree with my view of what makes a good citizen of the web, but you can’t disagree with the fact that ‘view source’ has made the web what it is today.
Mmmm, yeeaaaaaahhhhh… How so?
Like the much cheaper, more powerful and real ‘insert whatever’ experience of other devices that have previously competed with Apple’s products?
Once you’ve stopped categorizing peopel as ‘rabid’, perhaps you can take a step back and see what’s happening right under your nose, and maybe, just maybe, you’ll find that Apple just fundamentally changed personal computing.
Then again, maybe not.
Of course, they’re a company after all. That said, Apple under Jobs has always been driven as much by vision as by money. They’re not a charity case, but there’s a reason they didn’t jump on the tablet band-wagon when it first started rolling. They wanted to get it right.
Which to an extent probably suits Amazon fine, in-so-far as they make their money from content, not devices.
For the most part I agree entirely, but I also think the two (open and iPad) are mutually exclusive.
Lee:
Which makes me think of Acrobat? Have you tried scripting it? It’s horrendous! Absolutely horrible.
Mathias:
Yes, you can press-hold-drag, but that doesn’t necessarily mean a Flash application that requires dragging will work. The event implementation doesn’t necessarily translate.
Consider the scenario where Flash was onboard. What does that mean for Silverlight? Obviously also needs to be onboard. Which basically means you have to allow pretty much every kind of plugin to be onboard, yes? You can’t be a plugin racist, if Flash is onboard, despite being a ‘core’ web technology only because it crashes the party early and turns out to be entertaining, albeit kinda obnoxious, you have to also invite the math club and that guy who smells kinda weird. It’s all or nothing.
So we’ve gone from having a ‘simple’ browser, in which the developer of the browser, in this case Apple (and Webkit), are 100% in control of and responsible for the standards implementation…
…to a browser in which anyone can install anything. Which regardless of how amazing a team of programmers are behind the browser to begin with, will inevitably result in crashing plugins and even general instability, which reflects very poorly, not so much on the plugin, but the browser. And not just the browser, but the developer and the platform on which the browser lives.
Now, to save you the trouble, I took a trip to an alternate reality where this exact scenario played out, and I’ve brought back an example of what it might look like. Check it out.
It may seem absurd, but I’ve seen plenty of IE’s with 2, 3 or 4 redundant and also rather shady toolbars plastered all over the browsers of people who have no idea that a) it isn’t part of the browser, b) how to get rid of it and c) how it got there in the first place.
As it stands, Apple is in control of the implementation of the standards. The standards are open, well-documented and free (and there is no single development suite needed to use them, Notepad will do).
Who wins? The user.
And yes, sure, you could funnel it through the app store process, but they’d still be plugins, and thus invisible to the user, which not only diffuses the idea of apps (which is what the iPad is all about to begin with), but actually confuses the layman user. “Didn’t I just install an app? Where is it? How does it work? What does it do? Why are some plugins bundled and not others?”.
You may think that’s a banal argument, but the iPad, it would seem, is specifically built to not have there be two ways about these concepts.
How do you view source on the iPad? (Or iPhone?)
To answer my own question: With a Coda app with a built-in browser alongside its editor.
It’s not exactly useful on the iPhone, but if you wanted to you could undoubtedly write a bookmarklet to do so. With regards to the iPad, we can only guess, in which case my guess is that you probably don’t, at least in Safari. But, given that you can write your own apps, it’s very likely you’ll see a browser that supports view source within the first week or two of the iPad’s release.
Or Coda :)
Keep Flash off. I use Ubuntu Linux and OSX and Flash is terrible. Although it has rarely crashed my browser, it is a huge CPU resource hog. I know when a Flash is used on a tab, the PC fans kick in and the PC gets quite noisy. So the the PC uses way more power, not an efficient plugin at all. It should be banned. It is a technology not fit for 2010.
This quote from Michael Long:
My apologies, i should have said “In my opinion, safari is not a great browser”. I was merely referring to my experience with it as a developer in that some of the worst issues that have encountered taking up hours and days of my time have been spent trying to fix an issue that only happened for less then 3% of a sites traffic for safari users.
@Chris I did not say or mean to imply you where wrong, call you a fool or say that flash is the greatest thing ever. I was trying to share my opinion. If I came across as insulting I do apologies. However, I do think Flash is getting unfair blame here and is not the worst thing ever either.
@Michael
“Only this little thing called the web. You may have heard of it?”
As I said, the ability is there, in the developers hands, where I think the power of choice belongs. Besides HTML, most plug-ins, traditional applications and games do not have view source at all and the common user could care less.
“Consider the scenario where Flash was onboard. What does that mean for Silverlight? Obviously also needs to be onboard. Which basically means you have to allow pretty much every kind of plugin to be onboard, yes? You can’t be a plugin racist, if Flash is onboard, despite being a ‘core’ web technology only because it crashes the party early and turns out to be entertaining, albeit kinda obnoxious, you have to also invite the math club and that guy who smells kinda weird. It’s all or nothing.”
This is that part that frustrates me. Netbooks support all of this, are cheaper and more powerful. I guess we just have to agree to disagree because for me this is a HUGE disappointment knowing I can’t play some of my favorite web games or go to flash heavy sites like Disney where I can on a less expensive more powerful machines that are just as small if not smaller.
“I know you’re a big-time Adobe Flash Evangelist, and I know it must tickle you pink to think that big bad Apple is scared of a little Flash plugin. They’re not. So get over it.”
I’m assuming this was meant for me? However, I’m not an Adobe Flash Evangelist. I do not work for Adobe to promote their products in any way shape or form. I am an independent Flash/Flex developer and am an enthusiast for Flash much like you yourself are for Apple / open standards.
I’m really not trying to argue with anyone. That is useless and often times gets insulting, disrespectful and is largely unproductive. My original intent was to point out that there are a good number of people who do care about and use Flash and to express my disappointment in the ipad as both a consumer and Flash developer. Yes it does irk me when people say “the best web experience” about the ipad or iphone when it clearly does not offer the full capabilities of the web by excluding a number of plugins and web technologies when the vast majority of similar devices seemingly have little problem doing so.
Since Chrome also runs Webkit, same as Safari, your 3% is in reality more along the lines of 8 – 10%, unless your problems are directly related to Safari? In my experience, Webkit is far and away the best renderer in existance today, not only does it always do exactly what I expect of it, but it’s kept up-to-date and consistently provides the latest and greatest implementations of current and upcoming standards.
But then, most plugins, applications and games don’t exactly compare to the internet as a medium in general. View Source is the ultimate democratization. If my mom wanted to learn HTML tomorrow, I could show her how View Source works, tell her to do it in Notepad and given some time (and patience, granted), she would be able to copy, paste, hack, suss and bumble together a basic HTML page. That’s how I learned HTML, CSS, JS and PHP (to the extent that I know those things); by standing on the shoulders of giants.
That doesn’t mean I believe that everything in the world should be open and freely available to everyone, but we’ve got this far with the internet being as open and free as it is; and Flash simply isn’t a part of that circle of life. Yes, it’s well-known and well-supported — and for the record I don’t hate it as much as it may seem — but not only do I not idealistically believe that it belongs on the internet, in fact I would honestly rather not have these so-called ‘rich content applications’ than keep Flash around, given the choice. It’s just not a good netizen.
The iPad is not about money or specs. (Modern) Apple has never competed on those terms and never will, specifically for the reasons that none of the existing tablets have taken off so far, despite having existed for over a decade. They keep using old-fashioned desktop metaphors in a form-factor that doesn’t support it (aside from also being, IMHO, poorly made, ugly and largely useless, but that’s just me).
It’s exactly because Apple hasn’t just changed the form-factor and then otherwise loaded the iPad with OS X that it will succeed. Wildly so.
This isn’t about money — except that the iPad is priced exceptionally competitively — and it isn’t about specs, because they just don’t matter as they once did. It’s a totally different ballgame, in which the hardware, the software, the business and the content all interact in a way that just does not exist any where else.
It was a quote, in which the ‘evangelist’ was aimed at someone else (who works for Adobe, yes).
Honestly, there are no similar devices.
I’ll say this much; I’ll miss the NY Times infographics.
Another thing, which really bothers me, is that Flash crashing is blamed not on Adobe, God no, but on poorly written code from those using Flash.
Yet I can’t remember the last time my browser crashed because someone used a malformed HTML tag, or even JS. I’ve stalled it for a while (when I was writing my dice probability calculator).
So… How exactly isn’t the crashing Flash, which given the amount of complaints I’m reading about it, is a real-world problem, Adobe’s fault?
And granted, rich content is easier at the moment, using Adobe’s tools. But have you seen what can be done using web technology these days? My friend Gil Megidish ported Another World to javascript. JAVASCRIPT PEOPLE!
Belay that. There is the iPhone.
Flash can crash from poorly written code / uncaught exceptions but should not lock up or kill the browser. It is hard for me to fairly say who’s to blame without knowing why the browser is really failing (code wise). It could be bad or incomplete code in the browser / player combo, beta code, a new rev etc. A lot of times simply updating the browser rev would resolve the issue so this tells me its a browser issue. If updating the flash player resolves the problem, this is a player issue.
However, I am mostly referring to specific safari/mac issues that cause the browser to crash when playing flash: corrupt font data on the users machine: quicktime conflicts, bad preferences, etc. A lot of times the only solution is to delete the bad preference file or (in some of the worse cases) reinstall OSX which resolves this issue. To blame Flash for OS level issues isn’t really fair IMO when something in the OS borks.
I’ve seen browsers crash a number of times not involving Flash. the latest rev of FF pukes on me a couple times a day doing random things, sometimes just being on google and getting too click happy. In fact playing around with the Another World demo my browser crashed!
I’ve seen the “Another World” demo. very impressive but seen an “out of this world” (the first game right?) clone running all in flash at a much higher / more stable framerate with minimal CPU / mem utilization, no graphic issues, and full sound / audio.
I can’t say for sure but willing to bet the development was a lot easier in Flash. =)
Actually, there is a number of emulators now ported to flash and some of the pure AS3 versions run flawlessly thanks to hardware acceleration offered in Flash 10. They aren’t even recoded but straight up bytecode ports!
Just wait until you see what Flash 11 can do in regards to speed / performance!
in regards to ipad we just have to agree to disagree. If this was released by anyone other then apple I think it would be an epic fail. it just does not appeal to me at all or offer much, to me, in way of innovation. I mean have you seen the MS surface tablet? that thing is slick!
Agreed.
I tend to concur, though probably for different reasons than you.
It’s also a) the size of a small car, and b) not really a consumer product :)
Back for more, just cause someone brought up Surface and how the iPad would fail in the market if made by anyone but Apple.
I forget the site but someone out there posted the story of their company getting a Surface and setting it up and all that. Now, the folks setting up the Surface were not dunces. They were all IT professionals and could tie their own shoe laces.
That said, it took them several hours to figure out how the hell you powered the damned thing on before learning you needed a keyboard to get it going.
Now, imagine if Apple created something remotely like the Surface and try to guess what the first moment user experience would be like? We don’t have to.
It, the iPad, might fail if made by someone other than Apple but more because those people don’t do things the way Apple does not because the iPad wasn’t a good machine.
To blame Flash for OS level issues isn’t really fair IMO when something in the OS borks.
My experience since I installed ClickToFlash disagrees. Safari’s a lot more stable, my fans don’t hit 6k rpm when browsing and CPUs don’t creep up to 80% anymore (2.4Ghz MBP). My browser doesn’t crash, my system freezes less.
So that’s all MAC OS X fault?
Let’s not forget for one that MAC OS X the only main stream operating system is which ships with Flash installed. Got Flash and Shockwave installed by default on Windows? Got it on *NIX out of the box?
Having read a lot of these postings since my one, most of the people complaining that Flash crashes their browsers and machines have a common element in their postings (a Mac).
The reason why I’ve never had such crashing issues I guess is perhaps because I’ve always been lucky I’ve ran it in a stable Windows environment. Don’t get me wrong – I’m pretty agnostic about the whole platform debate, and I was forced to use Macs for 5 years almost 10 years ago now and thankfully broke away from all that as all the software design tools became available for a much lower cost vs performance system enabling me to use a machine with twice the power of a Mac for the same price, and with more hardware flexibility – I’m not anti Apple, I do think they make “beautiful hardware”, but looks and style are not enough, its cost of ownership that matters in the long-run after committing to a device.
All platform arguments aside, perhaps there is some kind of browser/hardware issue on a Mac perhaps that has tainted experiences of it so remember people, these are all opinions based on experiences, those are mine, so its not all bad as a technology – and I’m not just saying that because I’m a developer, I’d say the same thing if I wasn’t.
Don’t blame the petrol for a bad journey in a car that breaks down ;)
The point here is that when you stop in a garage you should be able to use every fuel to power your journey on the web and not be forced to use LPG only.
Unfortunately Apple has opted to create non-multitasking devices recently to make their kit’s interfaces operate in a slick manner – I’d say whatever the Flash debate, thats the biggest reason really not to get an Ipad. I want to use skype on a tablet while browsing the web and using a streaming music player like Spotify for example.
The good thing about this is that it will drive down the prices of comparable tablet PCs and UMPCs those things have been around for years at the £1000 mark here in the UK, which stopped them becoming popular, so it will do a lot of good to increase competition too.
Is it really true that Flash invalidates the App Store to a degree high enough to tamper with their business? We’ve witnessed, many times, that simply having greater performance and experience can easily sway a decision to the App Store over the web. With the iPad SDK, given the iPad’s abilities, games can be far more interactive and higher performing. iPad games will be a technological leap to web based Flash games, with the ability to move well beyond Flash’s playing field. How will a web based Flash game stop a child from wanting to play “Need for Speed” or “Call of Duty” on their iPad with an accelerometer? There are also free games on the App Store as well. Apple is doing this because they’re afraid their App Store won’t hold up to Flash based alternatives? Doubtful.
I’ve had Flash crash in Safari on OS X, in Firefox in Windows, and Firefox in Linux. Like I said, the non-Windows versions of Flash player are especially terrible and run badly.
Also, Webkit is pretty much the web page rendering engine these days. Safari isn’t the only browser using it.
Derek:
Heh. ‘Stable Windows environment’. Hehe.
Seriously though, you can argue all that you want about ‘stable environments’, but I can’t remember the last time an application crashed on my OS X. It happens. But I can’t remember the last time it happened.
Would you like to know how many times Flash has crashed since yesterday? Four times. Four. Here’s an example from 10 minutes ago. That you don’t have the same problem doesn’t make it go away. The fact is, that Flash on OS X sucks, to put it plainly.
Actually, do. If that petrol turns out to be camel piss.
Let me just stop you right there, because we both know that Apple is working on bringing multi tasking to their iPlatforms. You would prefer that they simply included it and deluded the usability of the device, I perfer to wait until they make it work properly. And I have 75.000.000 iPhones backing me up.
I think you mean “diluted” there Michael.
iPhone OS can already multitask (there are several background processes constantly running, and every app can be multithreaded) they just don’t allow multiple UI apps running at once. Yet.
Interesting discussion point. I think Flash is amazing. It has so much to give yet it sits in the mind that people only think of it for games, but it can do amazing 3D, check out http://www.ecodazoo.com/ ‚it is used to build some of the most sophisticated new applications http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/morgan_stanleys_matrix_an_app_from_the_future.php , is currently used in a varity of new media services http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/ that are viewed by millions, is used to build some amazing brilliant websites ie. Check out the showcase on http://blog.greensock.com/tweenmax/ and in addition is now used by lots on loads of websites to display simple fonts! check out http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/sifr
Many thanks!
I feel there is a huge point being missed here. At the moment many web sites rely on advertising revenues to stay online. These advertiser favour flash banners, MPUs (mid page units) and buttons to attract a viewer over static images. More current adverts can have roll overs and can expand to a viewers mouse action. Attractive flash adverts can easily be made at little cost to the advertisers. These adverts will not show on the iPad and currently there is A LOT of these adverts on the web. Apple claims to have the best web experience with the iPad but I doubt the experience will stay good if 8 out of 10 web sites viewed on the iPad has missing plug-in icons dotted over the web site where adverts should be.
Some companies do allow a GIF back up advert but really what is better, flash or a pixely Gif image.
Apps are great and serve a purpose on small mobile devices such as the iPhone and iPod where the screen is too small for web browsing and a specific task is needed whether that be banking on the move or gaming in the dentists wating room. The iPad although classed as a mobile device by Apple, i would call it more a couch browser. It will sit on your coffee table and be picked up every evening while your fav soap is on. I feel for this a full browing experience will be required and whether you like it or not Flash is HUGE part of modern day browsing. I believe there is so many more arguments for flash to be allowed on the iPad but I would need my own column for that. I just feel this is another Apple strategy to dominate and rule and also ensure minimum revenue is lost from within its eco-system of products.
I am a huge Apple fan, it must be said, I love its modern, dynamic approach to everything but I am starting to get the feeling they are maybe just taking the protection of its own products a little too far and not giving purchasers the choice. They are basicaly saying, you buy an Apple product all the products for that product must come from Apple also. I also feel it may get Apple into trouble in the future and start alienating Apple users..
OH NO! I won’t be able to view annoying Flash ads! No more having an ad interrupt what I was reading because I accidentally moused over it and now it’s taking up half the browser window! No more random sounds being played because some unscrupulous website allows Flash ads to play sound!
Yes, you’re right. Without these annoyances you just don’t get the full web browsing experience!